Oldish: Moving a Loved One

Frances Reaves Trascript

Gregg: [00:00:00] When I was a couple weeks short of my 70th birthday, I started thinking about my mother's mother who lived to be a hundred and her mother, who lived to be 102, and my father who lived to be 90. I began to think that maybe our generation could be the first to routinely live to be 100. When I talked about this at family dinner one night, my granddaughter who was five, said, 

Granddaughter: what are you gonna do for the next 30 years?

Granddaughter: Grandpa, 

Janet: hello, I'm Dr. Janet Price. 

Gregg: And I'm Greg kaust. And we are Oldish, and this is our podcast Oldish. 

Janet: If you're oldish. Someone who is, please join us every week for conversations amongst ourselves 

Gregg: and our special guests 

Janet: about what it means to be oldish in the 21st century. 

Gregg: If you ever wonder whether you're getting old, you're oldish, what are you going to do for the next 30 minutes?

Janet: Hi, I'm Janet. And I'm Oldish. 

Gregg: [00:01:00] Hi, I'm Greg. And I'm Oldish. Welcome to this episode of our podcast. Oldish Conversations on Aging in the 21st century. Uh, today we're welcoming back onto our podcast and into our conversation. Uh, friend Francis Reeves. Uh, she is an elder attorney and a consultant, and the author of a book, boomers Booming How to Thrive After 65 with an Asterisk, and the asterisk refers to and have great sex.

Gregg: There's recently been a big change in her life and we wanna talk with her about that. What happens when it's time to move a loved one and other things will come up. I'm sure. So welcome back Francis. 

Frances: It is so good to be back. Thank you so much for having me. And oh, by the way, I too am Oldish.

Janet: You're very 

Frances: welcome. I dye my hair, I dye my hair. [00:02:00] And left bloomers 

Janet: booming. 

Frances: Yeah, that's, that's right. Bloomers 

Janet: booming. Yes. 

Frances: I was looking in the mirror today and I thought maybe it's time. I called my Botox guy. I see a wrinkle appearing, which honestly, it speaks to vanity and there's a little bit of it that says I'm not really as old as I am.

Frances: I'm not really as old as I am, but I am. 

Janet: Yes, 

Frances: and I went to see the orthopedic guy the other day and he assures me, I am, 

Janet: did you say thank you? That's what I pay you for. I really appreciate it. 

Frances: But he did say one thing, and this is something that I think is something we don't harp on enough. You know, we talk about dementia, we talk about Parkinson's, we talk about all these old age disease, and nobody talks about prevention.

Frances: We simply talk about the medication for them. And when I went to see him, it was because I [00:03:00] had been to, I, there's a muscle issue. My piriformis muscle is an issue, and so the kid, he's a kid, but I love having this guy as my person because I want the new blood telling me what's wrong with me. And so he sent me to an orthopedic guy.

Frances: And so we took all these x-rays of my knees. And, and so he comes in and he goes, so what's the problem? And I said, well, you know, Dr. Galt really thought maybe with time I started looking at a knee replacement, which of course had shocked me when he said that. And he says, okay. And he says, well, what is it you can't do?

Frances: I said, well, one thing is I can no longer touch the heel. Of my right foot to my right buttocks. And he, [00:04:00] he looked at me and nodded. And then he said, I said, and you know, I, I really, I can't wear heels anymore. And he, he looked at me and nodded. He goes, can you walk? Can you go up and down the stairs? Is there any pain associated with it?

Frances: And I realized how stupid I sounded. Right. Really? Your heel can't touch your buttock. Oh, it was, in a way, it was good news because the truth is, if you look at the X-rays, there's a lot of bone on bone. You know, I studied ballet for 18 years because I ran, I, I'm still walking six miles a day. You know what I'm saying?

Frances: So I'm still very active and I do weight exercises and he said, look, he goes, you've done it the right way. Your muscles are holding up your bones, and when you have a quality of life [00:05:00] issue, that's when we discuss having your knee replaced. Which was like a shock to me. And he told me, he goes, and when you have your knee replaced, you're not even gonna be able to put it back that far.

Frances: Correct. 

Janet: Yeah. 

Frances: So it reminded me that it really is exercise, eating right and social connections. 

Janet: Yes. 

Frances: That prevents just about everything. I mean, do we have the rare diseases? Of course we do. But the bottom line is start early. what was it in the Kennedy era? Era, uh, vote early and often. 

Gregg: Yeah. Yeah.

Frances: So now it's exercise early in often. 

Janet: Yes. Yes. Yeah. And it's such a great example of as we're moving into our, through our ishness, that things are changing in our bodies. Yeah. And our minds sometimes. Yeah. And that [00:06:00] it can be so scary or so different than what it was that we need that feedback from specialists.

Janet: You're still okay. Don't feel the same as you did when you were younger, but you're still okay. 

Frances: Yeah, that's, I left there sort of elated, like, 

Gregg: yeah. 

Frances: Okay. So wa It hurts a little bit sometimes when I'm walking down the stairs, but with one vodka even that goes away. 

Gregg: There you go. 

Janet: Unless you end up going down the stairs and ways you weren't expecting, 

Frances: but you're very relaxed.

Gregg: Yeah. I find it encouraging that there are still doctors out there who would say that I don't wanna do the surgery. You know, you don't need surgery, you're doing all right. Because a lot of doctors would say, you know, I can get you in next Tuesday, and that way I get to bill $30,000 and go on about my business.

Gregg: And that's probably a minority of doctors, but those are the ones that you hear of. 

Frances: Well, Greg, you know, down here in Miami, I'm not so sure about that. You [00:07:00] really have to. Be very careful about your doctors. I moved to Miami from Baltimore, and my primary care and my gynecologist are still up in Baltimore.

Frances: First of all, I trust 'em. You know, they have a file this thick on me and, um, I know they're gonna take care of me now. Um, I remember the last time I had to have, um, what, what's that? Colonoscopy? It was nine years ago. I'm. Getting ready for my next one, but I went to my guy in Baltimore. I'll never forget him.

Frances: He looked at me, he goes, you know, there're a gastroenterologist in Miami. And I said, I know, but I know you. And so at any rate, I went up, I had it done. He woke me up from that fabulous sleep you get when you have colonoscopy. And he goes, okay, you're fine. Another 10 years, but I'll be retired. So look for someone in [00:08:00] Miami, but you have to look.

Frances: I got into this group because of my PCP in Baltimore. She referred me to the man who's now my cardiologist. And I'm fine. We did everything. And then through him, I've gotten to know all these other people, and I'm very pleased with the care and the, you know, it's, it's a business, it's a medicine. They want you to do well, et cetera, et cetera.

Frances: And if you go in for a workup, they don't give you five minutes, they give you a good 45 minutes to an hour. They want that workup done appropriately. 

Janet: That's great. 

Frances: So 

Janet: that's great. 

Frances: Which is how it ended up that my husband had to be moved. I know that's what we're talking about. Now, let me say this. I, and I've, I'm very happy to answer the hard questions and have [00:09:00] on another podcast about admitting that I'm not a caretaker.

Frances: I am not a caretaker. My poor dog had problems. My husband knew that from the very beginning, and we didn't share any children together. It was a second marriage, et cetera, et cetera. If you read my book, you know that he'd spent all his money and left me in debt. To the tune of $400,000. I mean, it wasn't a small debt.

Frances: I had to get a mortgage and go into my savings. Now, the good news is, A, I'm a lawyer. BI put myself through law school. So it turns out I knew how to do this, and c I'm a survivor. You know, you figure it out. You just gotta take that next step. But my life had exploded in front [00:10:00] of me. I thought I was married to a wealthy man.

Frances: I'm now going to have to ramp up my law practice. I, I mean, there were a lot of things, and it, you know, there, there were moments when I was out, uh, walking where I would just burst into tears. I mean, I, I, I couldn't believe this had happened to me. And then here he is. I mean, the. The debt, most of the debt, and I'm sure some of the spending, but you know it doesn't really matter now started because he just quit paying his bill.

Frances: When I got into trying to find a mortgage for the house, I found this $50,000 debt I had no idea about. Yeah, it went on and on and on, and a lot of it was he didn't pay his bills, period. 

Janet: And that, is that connected to that he was just not, he was losing his connection to reality. 

Frances: I, well, that's [00:11:00] what I think.

Frances: Certainly. Yeah. 'cause he was, first of all, he was very guarded with his money. I was not allowed to know anything. Um, it's just who he was. 

Janet: Mm-hmm. 

Frances: And so he had his own account. I had my own account. And, and it's not that, you know, the prenup stated he had to pay for everything, et cetera, et cetera. And I would be paid for how long I was married to him, which of course, even though I've been married to him for 30 years, it's still zero.

Frances: But hey, but so of course I'm not saying there wasn't anger and frustration and. How could anybody be so mean or ugly to someone? Been there for that. But you know, Tom and I had had a good partnership in Maryland. We'd done a lot of good things together. We were both very political [00:12:00] and I had sort of my avenue.

Frances: He had his avenue and it worked well. And more importantly, mom and dad taught me. Just by the way they were with each other that you don't kick someone when they're down. So no matter how angry I was, you don't, you don't, you don't leave. I have girlfriends who suggested I do, but it was ims. I mean, look, even now my life is wonderful.

Frances: I'm, you know, my law practice is moving forward. I'm. I'm out there doing things, but I, but I still feel a little guilty. I still want him to have the best life ever that he can. Okay. So to move him out was not simple. First of all, I had to feel convinced [00:13:00] it was time. Now, at this point, I have to ramp it up.

Frances: I have to work 40, 50 hours a week. I've gotta get out there, get to know other lawyers, try, you know, and there are no shortcuts when you are starting over again at the ripe old age of, at that point 69. Mm-hmm. When you're out there, again, you have to do it one person at a time. It's that simple. So, so it meant I, I had to leave Tom and he wouldn't walk the dog and then he became incontinent.

Frances: Totally. The poor man would wake up in the middle of the night and you could smell it in the bed. He would not sleep in another room unless I was sleeping with him. So that didn't matter. And, um.[00:14:00] 

Frances: I was beside myself. 

Janet: Yeah. 

Frances: I, I had no idea of the stress level I was living under because you're just living, you just, 

Janet: yeah. 

Frances: You're just putting one step in front of the other. 

Janet: Yeah. 

Frances: So, um, I worked with this primary care person. And here is what's really, really difficult, getting them into a place. First of all, you have to have a bed.

Frances: Well, I've been giving money to a place, so I, I knew they'd find a bedroom, so that wasn't the issue. The issue is does he really need it? You know? And that is the void. That we have in the medical realm. 

Janet: Yes. Mm-hmm. And there's one other area that [00:15:00] I don't know if you're planning to talk about, which is, so you're trying to figure out does he really need it?

Janet: Do you have a bed? And then is he willing to go? 

Frances: Well, the answer to that was no. Um, and I knew it, it it, he still is ready to move back anytime I was with him on Saturday. Um, but even mom and dad, I had to move them out too. Even mom and dad weren't ready to go. The only, the only thing that made it easier was that my mom and dad's two close friends were also moving out of the complex.

Frances: So that made it somewhat easier. Um, but before I get to mom and dad, I'll [00:16:00] just finish this story with Tom. 

Janet: Yeah. And I know I jumped in the middle, so No, 

Frances: no, no. 

Janet: You're talking about trying to decide if he was really ready, needed to go. Correct. And when, when you said that you already had a bed, so had you reserved a bed because you knew at some point 

Frances: you can 

Janet: No, you 

Frances: cannot reserve a bed.

Frances: No, I, I just. Look, if you're thinking that you're gonna have to move into a nursing home, you have to make those type of, what do we call them? Contacts now, so that you can call someone 

Janet: Yeah. 

Frances: And say, hi, it's Francis. You know? And in my case, I'm a donor to, it's a big campus. It has independent living. It has.

Frances: Assisted living. It has assisted living with Medicaid assistance. It has a nursing home, it has a rehab, and it has a small hospital. 

Janet: Wow. 

Frances: Yeah, so, and it's on 40 acres, so you know, you can [00:17:00] get outside. There's a lot of good in this plate. 

Janet: I think that might be the, um, model of the future, because I'm hearing that starting start to pop up a little bit.

Frances: Yes, yes. It 

Janet: makes so much sense. 

Frances: It does. It does. Yeah. And not only that, but if you go from independent to assisted living, it doesn't mean you can't still go back to the independent parties and things like that. I mean, the buildings are right next door to each other though. It's just that they need a wheelchair a little bit more.

Frances: So basically the PCP and I tried to get him in through the emergency room. Of the hospital he was associated with. In other words, go from the emergency room into rehab. So the first time we tried that, they said, no, he's fine. We're discharging him home. Okay. But here is what I did not know, and probably no one listening knows, is they don't necessarily, [00:18:00] and this is a big deal for insurance, they don't necessarily admit him.

Frances: They hold him. For observation, which is a different thing when it comes to the insurance that you're paying, how much your deductible is, and the thing that gets me every time is the people who are going through all this, our elder people with their kids who know less than their parents and their parents are at a lot.

Janet: Yes. Less. 

Frances: You know what I'm saying? 

Janet: Yes. 

Frances: When you're taking a step away, you think, oh yeah, this, this, how hard can it be? So the second time this happened, Tom fell, took him in and they said, oh no, after one day, no, he's fine. I'm like, okay. So I bring him back, sit him down, and I go into the shower. [00:19:00] I'm showering when I hear an oh.

Frances: Also the first time I had called 9 1 1. So all I hear something happened. I get out of the shower, he has fallen. This isn't even an hour after coming back from the er. So he has this huge, we guy, of course I call 9 1 1. Off we go again and I'm fit to be tied, but this time they sent him to rehab. Then from rehab we were able to get him into, I tried to get him into a, um, the nursing home with Medicaid help and he had qualified for the Medicaid advantage program.

Frances: Uh. As you know, I'm a Medicaid planning lawyer, so I had that in place. Thank God for education. [00:20:00] 

Janet: Absolutely. 

Frances: But the assisted living wouldn't let him in. They said he needed 24 hour care. So for the last year and two months, he's been in a shared room in a nursing home, and he hated it. Hated it, hated it, of course.

Frances: And now. He, it's sort of like he's used to it, but I, I sort of, here's, here's the issue with Tom. He has Alzheimer's and the Alzheimer's is progressing. Now, as it turns out, he also is at the beginning stages of congestive heart failure, which of course can also be. 10, 15 years, as we all know. Not that, you know, I'm, I'm not sitting here saying, oh, please hurry it up.

Frances: I was there just this past Monday and his liver function is now [00:21:00] one point below normal. Normally, I would say one point below normal and no one seemed upset about it. But then she told me that the last test, which was the last quarter, he was at 99, whatever that is. Now he's at 89 and it's not the fact that he's below normal.

Frances: That is upsetting to me. It's a little like, well wait a second. Is it isn't a 10 point draw something you might wanna worry about? And this is the nurse practitioner. And I asked him, I said, there's nothing you think that needs to be done? And no, we're monitoring him. We're monitoring him. And I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna step into this, but.

Frances: I then called the head person for, I then decided that Tom, they have him on a floor that where he can't leave, you know, at flight risk. Well, he can't walk. He [00:22:00] can't walk enough to be a flight rare. So I sort of want him off that floor. But more importantly, I think it's time for him to go into the assisted living.

Frances: With the Medicaid help. So I've asked them to look at that only, not only because everybody else in that nursing home, not that everybody is blah, blah, blah, but the majority are, and he doesn't. I want him to have someone's hand to hold. I want him to have. Whether it's five years or whatever, I want him to have as good a life as he can have.

Janet: Right. 

Frances: And part of it is on a very personal level because I know I'm having a great life now. He's out of my house, he's out of my hair. [00:23:00] I am doing what I wanna do somehow or another, and let me, knock on wood, I'm still living in the same house. I've made my mortgage payments. Cut down on, you know, my credit score took a huge hit, but slowly but surely it coming back and all of those things are things that I'm proud of, but, but because things are going well for me, I want them to go well for him.

Janet: That sounds like one thing that's missing is this human connection, right? Someone to talk to, like you said, someone to hold his hand, someone to be a, an environment that's stimulating. 

Frances: Exactly. 

Janet: Intellectually. Yeah. 

Frances: Yeah. And they say to me in the nursing home, well, you know, he doesn't, he doesn't wanna be part of the activities.

Frances: Well, would you if everybody else was in a bed? You, yes, yes. I'm, 

Janet: yeah. 

Frances: Hello now, Greg, you've been quiet. 

Gregg: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm quiet. I'm, I'm going [00:24:00] through a, a little bit different transition. I'm, I'm sitting in my family home because my brother passed away a couple months ago. And so I'm in the, I'm in the midst of a different, kind of a morass than the, than the one that you're kind of in.

Gregg: Um, my parents went through something a little bit similar. Anyway, they went through, um, my mother had dementia, probably Alzheimer's. Mm-hmm. Uh, took her from first diagnosis, which was a year or two after we first started seeing that. She wasn't Right. The 

Frances: signs. Yeah. 

Gregg: Um, so from, but from first diagnosis it was seven, eight years before she died.

Frances: Yeah. 

Gregg: Um, steady seemed rapid, but it was a steady decline. 

Frances: Uhhuh. 

Gregg: And she had the version of, uh, dementia. Seems like there's two, there's people get happy and sweet and some people get [00:25:00] angry all the time. 

Frances: Tom gotten happy and sweet. We don't recognize them. The whole family doesn't. 

Gregg: Well, there you go. I would've, I'd trade you for that one.

Gregg: 'cause she got the angry one and my brother moved back in with them because she wasn't ready to be in a facility yet. Um, my ex-wife, who was a nurse, referred to it as nursing home level of care, so she wasn't ready for that. But she was pushing my father down the stairs. She was hitting him. She would yell at him when he tried to get into bed with her.

Gregg: What are you doing? Getting in my bed? And she didn't cognize. Yeah, that 

Frances: was mom. 

Gregg: And uh, she would, she'd get mad at him and she'd go out the front door and walk down the street in her night gown and, you know, so my brother moved in here to take care of both of them, and in exchange for that, uh, we gave him life tenancy in the house.

Gregg: Because that was a big thing that he did. So, you know, he gave up baseball. 

Frances: That's very nice. Yeah. 

Gregg: He gave up his life [00:26:00] to come here and let us have a little bit more and help up my father. But they, my father and my brother kept my mother in the house for probably two years longer than they should have.

Frances: Mm-hmm. 

Gregg: So my father was exhausted. And so anyway, so, uh, my mother died in 2008, my father in 2014, and my brother lived here by himself. For another 12 years. And because of the way that that all worked out, we never did the part that many people do of our parents are gone, we clean out their house. That never happened.

Gregg: So I'm sitting in the house that I grew up in, uh, surrounded by stuff that was here when I was a kid. Uh, and. With an overlay of stuff that was my brother's and a further overlay of 20 plus years of there was nobody here who [00:27:00] paid attention to cleaning. 

Frances: Yeah. 

Gregg: So it's very challenging sitting here. But I, I clearly can relate to the things that you went through because I went through with my father.

Gregg: How are we gonna handle Sooner or later my mother has to be moved. 

Frances: Mm-hmm. 

Gregg: And he was of that generation and said, I'm not gonna give up on her. Yeah. Um, she wouldn't give up on me and you know, so on like that, dad 

Frances: was that one, 

Gregg: but he also had in mind that he wanted to protect the family legacy. So he went through a period of time just before my mother died of so that she could go into a nursing home and have Medicaid pay for it.

Gregg: She had to be asset less uhhuh. So, so they went through and put everything in trusts and, and gave stuff away and so on and so forth. Um, but it's all a tangled mess. And my brother died [00:28:00] without a will. And so I'm sitting here with a big life change in my life. I'm the last one in my birth family. And, uh, there's stuff in here.

Gregg: It's like. I pick something up, I say, I wonder what the heck this is. I'll ask my know. I can't ask him. Uh, so, and there are things that need to be sold. My father had an antique car. Well, you can't register a car without a title. Well, where's the title? I'm like, I can't ask my father. I can't find it. The piles and piles of paper here, I can't find the title to the vehicle.

Gregg: I can't ask my brother where it is. Nobody else knows. So that's fun. Well, so 

Frances: he died. He died in test state. Did he have money? Did he have an account? Any kind of social security? I know, but, 

Gregg: well, it was, no, he was pretty much stretched thin. He was collecting social security. He was making a little bit of money on the side selling weed that he grew.

Gregg: Uh, [00:29:00] so it was funny, the police when, uh, he, he died in the house. Um, and apparently. This wasn't well planned. 'cause he died in the house and he was here on the floor in the living room for two weeks before anybody found him. 'cause he had isolated himself enough that, you know, he wasn't talking to people 

Granddaughter: and 

Gregg: Geez.

Gregg: So by the time somebody said We gotta, we really gotta check on this guy. Um, 

Frances: how old was he? 

Gregg: He was 70. I think he died on his birthday. We don't know for sure yet 'cause we don't have the medical examiner's report back yet on time of death. But the last person who talked to him that I've been able to find, uh, talked to him on, on January 7th, his birthday was the eighth.

Frances: Mm. 

Gregg: So his very high likelihood that he died on his birthday. So he had just turned 73. 

Frances: 73. 

Gregg: Yeah, 

Frances: that's young. 

Gregg: I know. My sister died when she was [00:30:00] 74. Yeah. So I, I'm not gonna ask you how old you're commend Planning better. The planning is a good idea. I'm starting to scratch my head about, I, maybe I should do some planning for this so that 

Frances: somebody everybody needs while they're alive, a power of attorney and a healthcare, and everybody thinks you need a will.

Frances: Or a trust, but you don't. You can. You can. You might need one, please. I'm not saying you don't, but there are so many of the instruments we all have, like IRA and a managed account. You can go into those instruments and leave beneficiaries. And that way it bypasses probate. You can leave the house in a lady bird deed and that bypasses, and Florida has a lady bird deed.

Frances: Other [00:31:00] states have pay on death, but it bypasses. It does two things that are very important. It bypasses probate and you inherit the house. At that level. In other words, if the house had been purchased at 250,000 and or 400,000 and now, um, it's 10 years later and it's worth 600,000, you get it at the 600,000.

Frances: You start from the beginning there. You don't have to worry about any taxes or. Any of the in-between times, a lot of people have their children on their deeds thinking that, oh good, this won't be a problem. Well, it won't be for them, but it's a capital gains tax. Now, often they're exemptions, so it, it turns out only to be 10 or $15,000 often, but not always.

Frances: [00:32:00] I mean, just take care of it. You want the h And so what happens to the house now? Who was the residuary? Who, who's the residuary? 

Gregg: Well, it's, uh, it turns out to be not what we had in mind. We were led to believe that the house was in a trust that would continue until we, either, my brother decided he didn't wanna live here anymore, or he wasn't alive anymore.

Gregg: Mm-hmm. But it turned out that that wasn't the way that the trust was written. The trust was written so that it terminated when my father died. So it was interesting that in the same trust a couple of lines later, it says that my brother could have life tenancy, but how that would work if the, you know, the hou the trust ended him.

Gregg: I'm, I'm 

Frances: hit death. 

Gregg: Yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was a little, so big surprises. 

Frances: Did he have any children? Did he have any children? 

Gregg: My brother did not. My sister [00:33:00] did. And it turns out that because of the way the trust was written, we technically inherited in 2014, each of us a third. So my sister's son owns a half and I own 

Frances: a And you own a Yeah.

Gregg: Yeah. Which was not what I expected. Um. And it's taken a little bit of digging through to get stuff. And so anyways, I highly recommend people pay more attention going in, um, and think about this stuff. 'cause it's, you know, I'm like everybody else, I went along, nothing's ever gonna happen to me or, uh, you know, but that's not the case.

Gregg: If something's gonna, 

Frances: that's not the case. 

Gregg: Everybody's gonna move along at some point. And so it's a good idea to. Take care of it in advance. 'cause it's a mess later. 

Frances: Well, I probably said this the last time we were all chatting. If Queen Elizabeth died, we're all going to die. 

Gregg: Yes. 

Frances: You know what [00:34:00] I'm saying?

Gregg: Yeah. 

Janet: And Francis, is this what you do as a lawyer, like work with people on the front end? I do. Yeah. 

Frances: Estate and medicaid planning. 

Janet: Okay. 

Frances: Right. And then I also have a niche. I take care of people like my husband. I have another client in there. She has been, uh, I have been taking care of her since we moved her from her home into an assisted living facility.

Frances: She had run out of money. Another very sad story. Her husband had left her quite well off in a trust, but her daughter went and bought a house for $250,000 and voila. It went to shambles. Nothing happened. I did my best to figure out if there was anything from that house, but there wasn't. So we had to sell the house she was in and move her.

Frances: And this woman had been living alone with two people who [00:35:00] came during the day only, and she was on a couch. I mean, it was the saddest thing I've ever seen. Mm-hmm. But if you think she wanted to move outta that house.

Frances: Oh my. But we found her place and she has gone from the assisted living. Then she went into the memory care center and now she's run out of money and she's in, uh, the nursing home. But it's been, she just turned 90 this year, so I'm saying it's been five years. She's outdone the little two year stint. My father didn't, my mother did.

Frances: Yeah. But, um, but dad didn't need it. Getting mom out of the house, getting mom and dad. There was a moment there when dad was not a happy camper with his doll baby daughter. I mean, you know, the apple of his eye and he, [00:36:00] my, my name is Helen Francis and, and although I go by Francis, but you know, when Pop was mad at me, it was Helen Francis.

Gregg: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That must be a rule that parents have to do that. Because I know so many people that they never hear their first name or their middle name unless they're in trouble. 

Frances: Exactly. It. Exactly. And you know what it, it's sort of Pavlovian, right? The minute you hear Helen Francis, you're like, 

Gregg: yep, yes, that, yeah.

Frances: It's so funny. But 

Janet: yes, 

Frances: but we, you know, we got him out of the apartment and of course that's when. It became very clear mother could no longer live with my father. She had vascular dementia. The dementia was too far gone, so they had long-term care insurance. So we put her into a long-term. I made $15,000 from Mother's [00:37:00] Journey because we tried to put her into a long-term care facility and they let her escape.

Frances: Here's what I learned about dementia. It doesn't make you stupider at all. You are still as brilliant as you were. Charlotte gets in there, she knows she doesn't. Charlotte is mother. She knows she doesn't wanna be there, so she pulls a fire alarm. Everybody goes out, right? Mom goes to the big street and starts flagging people down and whatever outfit she had on, and one of the drivers called the police and said, I think.

Frances: You have an escaped elderly out on the street. The police came, took her back to where they thought she belonged. They didn't even realize she was missing. 

Janet: That is so horrible. 

Frances: It 

Janet: is horrible. That's 

Frances: horrible. That's horrible. Then we moved her into a small home with several people like mom. And [00:38:00] that worked better until her long-term care insurance company, very well known, long-term insurance, you know, has all the recommendations called to say she had run out of time.

Frances: It was a two year policy or three year policy. I don't remember. I'm like, run out of time. That's not what any of your sheets say. And I had to count, you only do this for your mother. Oh. I had to count every day they had paid. Then I went on premium LinkedIn and wrote a letter to everybody within that company with the senior VP title or better, and wrote a letter about my mother, and within 24 hours I had a phone call and within a week I had $15,000.

Frances: Which only meant I should have asked for more, but it was my [00:39:00] first time. But no one is on their side. 

Janet: Yeah, 

Frances: no one. 

Janet: Well, Francis, I keep thinking about what you said a little bit ago today, that you're not a caretaker, and then I'm hearing all of what you've done. To take care of your mom, your dad, your husband?

Frances: Well, I mean, being able, yeah. As I've told so many people that if mom and dad hadn't had an attorney for a daughter, I shudder to think of what might have happened. 

Granddaughter: Mm-hmm. 

Frances: But that's not the case. They did. And now my nephew's an attorney, so there's hope for me. 

Janet: Yes. Yeah, that's right. 

Frances: Um, but. The, the issue is, I mean, just for instance, Medicaid applications, which I do, it is, I mean the people I work for are the Inbetweeners, right?

Frances: They have $2 million, or [00:40:00] yes, they have about $2 million. Somebody gets very, very sick. Do you know how quickly that money is gonna go? So you have to get that person into Medicaid, right? And I just did a talk on whether Medicaid is a ethical and Medicaid planning. What I do is ethical and moral because Medicaid is for poor people.

Frances: So how do you justify someone with $2 million all of a sudden? But I promise you they are gonna be poor. 

Janet: Mm-hmm. 

Frances: I mean, that's the issue. Their health is gonna make 'em poor. They're gonna make, it's gonna make the whole family poor. And so they always argue about, oh, well the kids just wanna get their inheritance.

Frances: Well, there's some truth to that, I'm sure, but you know, who cares? It's karma. Let's get mom and dad taken care of. If it's dad who's sick, let's [00:41:00] make sure mom gets where she needs to go so dad can breathe a sigh of relief, right? And vice versa, but. So many people, and I live in a fairly affluent area because when I moved here I thought I was 

Janet: affluent.

Frances: Matsa. 

Janet: Yeah. 

Frances: But nevertheless, there are so many people who are going to need Medicaid. They think they have a million bucks. They think they've got it made. You don't. 

Janet: Well, so interesting because as I've learned over the past 10 years, maybe. A little bit more about like, that there's Medicaid and what that means.

Janet: And I'd always thought of Medicaid as for children and families who don't have enough money to live well live, you know, but I always thought, I never thought about it as being this isn't okay. Um, you know, uh, older adults with some money shouldn't access Medicare, Medicaid, but I, I've always thought of it as [00:42:00] the elderly people who need.

Janet: Some kind of program, some, you know, not home or maybe supports who needs supports, uh, need to have that paid for. And it makes me think about like my son, one of my kids lives in Sweden, which is a socialist country. And how they provide all of this 

Frances: they do 

Janet: for free and, you know, free that everyone pays taxes, but all the taxes go to the things that children and families and aging people need.

Janet: So that's what we're doing. 

Frances: Yeah, 

Janet: we're not calling it that yet, and we need a lot more of government to understand what goes into all of that. 

Frances: Well, I also think that we need for people to understand, like for instance, between Tom and I, there's a 15 year difference, right? So what I am, I'm supposed to not have help.

Janet: Mm-hmm. 

Frances: When I'm his age. 

Janet: Right. 

Frances: You know, or even if there's just. Even if you're the [00:43:00] same age and one of you gets a cancer. 

Janet: Yeah. 

Frances: Or a Parkinson's disease. Mm-hmm. Or multiple sclerosis, I'm sorry. 

Janet: Well, and don't you have the right to get help in caring for your 

Frances: husband? Well, they don't do that either. I mean, you know, they're talking about tax credits.

Frances: I was, I was listening to it on the news there. Every year it's the same discussion and it's always led by A A RP, who I have no respect for. But nevertheless, I mean, don't get me wrong, they got some help with the Medicare drugs, et cetera, et cetera. But remember, Medicare came from President Truman wanting healthcare for everybody in the United States.

Frances: It was LBJ who finally got it. So, okay, let's just go with over 65. I mean, Medicare is the compromise. For healthcare for all, which as you know, [00:44:00] Mrs. Clinton or Senator Clinton or Secretary Clinton also tried to get, and the cute story behind that is that when LBJ got a passed, he flew to Independence, Missouri and President Truman and best Tru.

Frances: Got Medicare card number one and two. 

Gregg: Oh, that's pretty cute. I didn't know that one. 

Frances: Yeah. Well isn't that a great, I get goosebumps thinking of, 

Janet: yeah. That's awesome. 

Frances: And, and people also forget, they gave, they gave the credit to FDR, but it was actually President Truman who started the first civil rights bill because he'd been a World War I guy, a lieutenant in the army.

Frances: And World War I is now over and he heard that a black soldier had been turned away because it was a white cemetery. He actually flew out, I don't know where it [00:45:00] was, made them bury him there and came to the funeral. Harry, of course, my grandfather worked for Harry Truman, so I do have a soft spot in my heart for him.

Frances: Uh, but for 

some 

Janet: good reasons. 

Frances: Yes. Yeah. I mean, he really was concerned with all for one and one for all. Not that we don't have that now. Um, 

Gregg: yeah. Yeah. What's a point? Presidents. Were decent human beings. 

Frances: Human. I know, I know. JFK right? As not. Your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.

Gregg: Yep. 

Frances: So yeah, 

Janet: that little era in L-G-L-B-J, I just think about, he started Head Start, for example. Yeah. He start, there were so many things that happened at that time. 

Frances: Yeah, no, 

Gregg: I mean, I think we're definitely flawed, imperfect people. You know, some of the back, you [00:46:00] know, in previous. Not, not that long ago. Some of their behaviors would've had, had they been known, would've ended their careers.

Frances: Right. 

Gregg: Yeah. So that's, that's one of the things that's better now, is that you can be completely horrible and keep your career 

Frances: well, not if you're a woman. 

Janet: Well, exactly. 

Frances: But we're not gonna go into that now. We're not gonna go into that now. 

Gregg: No. I may snip all of this right out. 

Frances: And, you know, one thing I wanna get across today that I think is so important, and I can't thank you enough for saying that, even though I don't wanna be a caretaker, I've been taking care of all these people because until you said it, I, I promise you I didn't realize it.

Frances: You know? Mm-hmm. I, I, I just, it's, it's what I saw in front of me with my [00:47:00] parent. So. You know, um, 

Janet: well, that there's many ways to be a caretaker. 

Frances: Yeah. 

Janet: You know, so your image might have been, and many people's images are okay, they have to move in. You have to maybe quit your job and provide that, you know, round the clock care.

Janet: But you've been doing caretaking in so many important ways for each of those people. Yeah. 

Frances: And, and, but what I want everyone to understand is your parents, there are so many resources. For caretakers through their parents. And by that I mean, I'm just gonna tell you about one of my pro bono clients. He had Parkinson's and it was quite advanced and she loved him and they had four children together and no one could touch him but her da da, da.

Frances: I introduced them to the Medicaid Advantage [00:48:00] program, which then sent someone out to the home 40 hours a week. I mean, you could have put me up on that cross. She thought I had worked magic, but I didn't work magic. I just knew where the resources are and it was. For free. I mean, I'm happy to tell anyone that for free.

Frances: You know, I, I only wanna take your money if you can afford to have me. Now, I'm not gonna spend a lot of time looking for the people who afford to have me. But pro bono is certainly a part of my practice. And he died and she and I had drinks the other day because we were talking about what she had to do and.

Frances: You know what she told me? She goes, I am worthy. I am worthy. [00:49:00] And she didn't even realize how she felt that she was a prisoner in her own house. And that's why I suggest therapist. I still have a therapist. We're down to a couple times a month, but there was a time there when weekly I was, you know, a basket case.

Frances: And there are free therapists and there are therapists that you can call on the phone. There's all these ads for, and they're the 9, 8, 8 line. If you think you can't take it one step further, but the issue is you have to choose to be a caretaker. Otherwise there's a very good chance you'll die before they do.

Frances: And then what happens? 

Janet: Right. 

Frances: I was at the ballet yesterday. I know it's, it's a hoity-toity, but I did study it for 18 years, so it's my one little thing that's, [00:50:00] so I was at the ballet yesterday and this woman who ballet, the way we do it is a little like football. We all have the same season tickets, you know?

Frances: And so when, when the season starts, it's all the same old folks except we drink champagne. That's the big difference. And watch ballet. But from last year to this year, she had aged mainly, I'm willing to bet this woman had lost at least 10 pounds and she doesn't have 10 pounds to lose and she has 40 hour help.

Frances: But now with Tom out of the house. Out of my vision, I travel. My life is great. Someone wants me to go somewhere. I have to look at my schedule and see if I can. So if you think you can be a caretaker, fine, but remember, the stress [00:51:00] is amazing. You, you, you don't know how much stress you're under, and if it's something you don't wanna do, start finding a way at it.

Janet: Yes. 

Frances: Period. It's your life, 

Janet: right? Letting go of the guilt. And I keep thinking of boomers booming and the title of your book is like, we're moving into an era where we don't have to, is not automatic. That we are the all day, every day caretaker. And then caretaking becomes a continuum, you know? Mm-hmm. From being there every second, every day, seven days a week, to, you know, what is it that I can do to help this loved one get the support they need?

Janet: It's not gonna be me. But I can help that happen. 

Frances: Exactly, exactly. And I begged Tom to get long-term care, which he wouldn't do because it was never gonna happen to him, even though four of his five uncles had had [00:52:00] Alzheimer's in their seventies, including his father. Hello. Okay. But it didn't matter. When push came to shove, I already knew what I couldn't do, so, and.

Frances: I can't thank you enough for reminding me that I am doing it in my own way. 

Janet: Yes, you're very welcome. 

Frances: I'm so glad we had this podcast. 

Janet: Yes, thank you. You're welcome. And thank you for being here. I know we're almost out of time. Is there anything more that you wanted to be sure to say 

Frances: today? No, I mean, none of it's easy.

Frances: None of it's easy. Just look in the mirror. Remember, you have a life. Yes, you have a life. And when your mom or dad or sister dies, guess what? They're not gonna remember what you did for 'em. 

Gregg: Wow. Yeah. 

Frances: It's about you. And no one's gonna say, oh, Francis says you were so good to him. No one's going to say that.

Frances: Well, certainly not my husband's [00:53:00] family, they accused me of stealing the money if only I had. Darn 

Janet: yes. Yes. Well, there's so much more to talk about. I hope that we can meet up again in the future. 

Frances: Yes. I love our chat. 

Janet: Yes. 

Gregg: Wow. This has been great. 

Frances: It has. 

Gregg: It's really nice to see you again, 

Frances: and Greg, now I'm happy to talk to you about your issues.

Gregg: Okay. I would like that. 

Frances: Okay. 

Gregg: I would like that. 'cause there's a lot of stuff I don't know. 

Frances: Yeah. I'm happy to sort of fill you in on how all that works. Okay. And doctor, you as well. 

Janet: Thank you. Thanks. I might call you, 

Frances: you never know. I'm only a phone call away. 

Janet: Okay. Thank you Francis. 

Frances: Thank you guys so much.

Frances: I'm so happy you invited me back. 

Janet: Wow. 

Gregg: Yeah, we're too. 

Janet: Thank you. Yeah. 

Gregg: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I, I learned a lot, including, I've learned. [00:54:00] Once again, the difference between how we perceive ourselves and how we actually are and that it's unlikely the part we, we express not being a caretaker is missing a piece.

Gregg: And as a person who has been in the caretaking role, I frequently would beat myself up for. Not knowing how to do this other stuff. I don't know anything about Medicaid. I don't know anything about the legal aspects and all of that stuff. And I would, I would beat myself up for not being complete, but I was doing the part that I could do.

Gregg: And you're doing the part that you can do. Um, and people need it all. So, 

Frances: and as long as you know someone who can do the other part, 

Janet: eh, 

Gregg: that's 

Frances: right. 

Janet: Well, it makes me think of Hillary Clinton when she, you know, talked about and wrote a book about it takes a village to raise a child. It takes, right. I think it takes a village to support each other in this [00:55:00] and being oldish and moving on into old age and all 

Frances: the, that means, and I think the communities are coming together that way.

Janet: Yes. 

Frances: You know, they, I think they want you to move in in your seventies now. So that you know you can live until you're 90 because you do have that social connection. 

Janet: Yes, that's right. Exactly. 

Gregg: That's right. And it takes a village to walk each other home. 

Frances: It does well, yes. Especially with bad knees. 

Gregg: Yeah, 

Janet: exactly.

Frances: Maybe 

Janet: without heels. 

Frances: Oh, for sure. That all right guys. All okay. 

Gregg: Well thank you, 

Frances: Francis. 

Gregg: It was great. That's it for now. Thanks for listening. Once again, we had a great time talking with Francis Reeves, author of Boomers, booming After 65 with an Asterisk. We hope you enjoyed it and learned something about a part of life we're all facing.

Gregg: There's a link in the show notes if you want to reach out to Francis, perhaps to get some help with your own situation or to plan [00:56:00] ahead. Our next guest will be Mike Brier, author of the Substack, aging Against My Will Coming up soon. Stay tuned. Don't forget to love each other. You can leave comments or requests for topics or guests on this or other episodes at www dot oldish me.

Gregg: There's a link there too. If you've wondered how you can help support our podcast, if you like what you heard today, please tell a friend and rate and review our podcast on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts.